Craig (00:00.686)
Hey everybody, this is Craig Garber. Welcome to Everyone Loves Guitar. I got an awesome guest today with John Ondrasik. Most people know him as Five for Fighting. I want to give a quick shout out to Julie Lichtenstein for hooking us up. Thanks, Julie, your sweetheart. Just a quick Cliff Notes on John. He’s a platinum -selling multi -instrumentalist singer -songwriter to me. This guy’s a fabulous songwriter, very much in the classic songwriters of the 60s and 70s Elton John, Neil Diamond. You’re actually your voice sometimes sounds like Neil Diamond too on some of these tracks. John’s released six studio albums has several hundred music licensing placements, many and well known TV shows and movies. He co manages his family’s business called precision wire products. They’re the number one, think shopping cart maker in the country. Is that

John (00:33.023)
There.

John (00:50.261)
We’re not number one, but we make a lot of them, that’s for sure.

Craig (00:53.28)
Right. They make shopping. That’s a hell of a niche business too. he’s an Indy. He’s also an in -demand keynote speaker. would encourage you to watch his Ted X presentation as well as some others out there. John’s also heavily involved in a number of charitable causes. I would encourage you to check out his website or Wikipedia and the website. What kind of world do you want .com for more information to help support these causes.

And just a heads up for those of you who are big fans of John’s, we’re not gonna talk about his biggest hits today only because there’s so many interviews out there. He’s done those. I didn’t wanna be redundant and ask him the same questions that he’s been asked a thousand times. So thanks so much John for coming on the show. I really appreciate your

John (01:32.884)
Craig, it’s great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Craig (01:35.182)
Oh man. Uh, okay. So your mom was a piano teacher and you started on piano with the ripe old age of two, which you play, you play them, which is like when I heard that, was like, what, uh, which you played until 13 and you got more into sports, which is still a big sports fan. Shortly after that, you started writing your own songs and you were quite prolific as a writer right from the start.

I was curious, was there like a particular experience that was critical to you becoming a musician?

John (02:09.897)
I don’t think so. I’ve always had a passion for music and as a teenager found my passion for songwriting. But I was fortunate to have, yes, my mom was a USC piano major. As you mentioned, she started me very young. I kind of had the aptitude. But of course, she learned very quickly that you don’t teach your kid piano.

Craig (02:34.636)
I was impressed by that, man, when I heard

John (02:36.499)
Well, it didn’t last very long. She had a very good friend who was a piano teacher. So we, they traded kids. So, so I would go to her friends for piano. So I’d have to be a little more respectful and she would teach her kids. But my dad was an astrophysicist. So, he was going off to JPL every day, NASA every day. So I kind of had this musical mom, this kind of engineer.

Craig (02:42.922)
John (03:00.841)
brilliant dad so was it was really wonderful you know to to grow up in that household and and I just you know very early on I started playing Stephen Schwartz you know Godspell and Bert Bacharach songbooks and they got you know the Beatle songbook that was as thick as a phone book. And and I just love playing you know I just love I’ve loved.

Craig (03:21.257)
Yeah.

John (03:28.853)
I love songs like everybody else. We would sing Carly Simon on the way to camping trips and James Taylor. But as you mentioned, when I was 13 and I wanted to chase girls and ride my skateboard and play basketball, I really didn’t want to practice anymore, the piano. And she was wise. She said, OK, yeah, if you have the passion for it, do it. If not, you have the fundamentals. You can play for your grandkids one day. And I just fell in love with songwriting. I just started writing songs at

and have been scrounging ever since, you know, for a better and better song.

Craig (04:05.462)
Awesome. Awesome, man. I heard you say on an interview, which I found really refreshing, that much of your songwriting, especially early on, was driven creatively by a chip on your shoulder. And I was able to relate to that because, like, I guess I always called it righteous indignation, has pushed me and allowed me to accomplish quite a lot. Also, especially in my younger days. So to whatever extent you’re comfortable, what was that chip and how did it get there?

John (04:18.729)
Ha ha.

John (04:36.533)
Well, look, I think if you’re in the arts, you understand that. The arts is basically an exercise in how to handle rejection. There are a few child prodigies that have success very early and can sustain that. That brings its own challenges. But yeah, I think.

Craig (04:45.486)
Well said.

John (04:59.451)
everybody who listens to this as you who does the arts just you know their goal is to be heard.

People may like it, people may not like it, but I think so many folks just want to be heard. Just give me the chance, you know, just, just listen. And for 99 .9 % of us, that is very hard to do. And, and I think so much of success in any profession, not just music has very little to do with talent. It has a lot to do with will and perseverance and how do you handle rejection?

Craig (05:34.22)
Yeah, I agree.

John (05:38.519)
I mean, look, Superman really was a woe is me. It’s not easy to be me. You know, and when you’re a young songwriter hitting the wall and you’re a good songwriter, not a very good singer, you’re a good singer, not a very good songwriter. It’s like you hit, know, everybody has a reason to pass on you. You feel that, you know, what the hell, you know, it’s not easy to be me. Of course.

years later, I could never write that song. You learn that it’s actually pretty easy to be most of us. Maybe we don’t get our dreams come true. as a young songwriter, think that’s a sentiment that makes sense. And all of us share it. even if we do happen to have success, that never really goes away. That insecurity never goes away. So, I think I still have a chip on my shoulder. think if you talk to, you know, know a lot of athletes and as soon as you kind of lose that,

I think you do lose your edge and you just don’t want to let it consume you, right? That’s the thing. It’s like you don’t want it to like take your life down. You don’t want to be, you know, just angry and depressed all the time. But I think you have to have some ego and you have to have some confidence and you if you use that ship right, that it could serve you well.

Craig (06:39.724)
Yeah,

Craig (06:54.476)
Yeah, it’s like the Spider -Man thing with great power comes great responsibility, What was your first break and how did that come

John (06:59.428)
That’s right.

John (07:07.303)
Huh, well, I mean, there’s always kind of little things along the way that you look back on and go, if that didn’t happen, if that didn’t happen, but I guess.

I’m gonna tell you two, okay? I’m gonna tell you two. Because one, I think your audience will enjoy and the other was a fun story. The first one was out of college. I was living in Malibu in a friend’s apartment and I went to the pool one day.

Craig (07:22.402)
Good,

John (07:43.549)
And there were two guys sitting by the pool. I could tell they were rockers. had long hair, had the wristbands, had the stuff. And we were just talking and I was a young kid and they’re a little, you know, they’re late thirties and turns out one of them was a guy named Rudy Sarzo who you know. Yep. And another guy was Scott Sheets, who was the guitar player for Pat Benatar. He wrote fire and ice. so long story short, we began talking and

Craig (08:01.267)
yeah, had Rudy on the show here years ago. Yeah. Sure.

John (08:13.427)
And Rudy, you know, because we’re there every day, kind of takes me under his wing and starts to mentally befriend me, listen to some of my songs.

And I had this almost famous experience where I was this little kid. And this is when Rudy was in Whitesnake at the top of Whitesnake’s, know, is this love, here I go again, you know, rock stardom. And so he would start bringing me around. He would bring me to shows and he would take me up the elevator and I just kind of follow around. Rudy turned out is what was a closet Barry Manilow fan. So he loved piano. He loved songs. And Scott also kind of like…

Um, we started working with Scott and, actually we formed a band, me and Scott Sheets, John Scott, was called. I was 22, he was 40, and then a couple other members of Papadatar’s old band kind of joined. So it was literally me with Papadatar’s old band. And we would go in the studio and we cut songs and Rudy would come in. And so I had these wonderful rock star kind of mentors, um, that were giving me confidence. and of course the songs were not typically what I do now. They

more like Bon Jovi, kind of that pop rock, but we wrote some good songs and we got a manager and we were kind of on our way. And then this little band called Nirvana came out and that whole thing ended overnight. those relationships were really important to me to kind of introduce me to the music business, give me some confidence, have some mentors. And so after that…

I went back to the piano and I started kind of writing kind of the stuff you hear now and of course struggling and you know trying to get a gig anywhere. So the second story is I was playing in a piano bar.

John (09:58.892)
on Melrose and Vine, believe it or not. And, you know, it’s back in the day where you pay to play. And if there’s not 20 people there, you’re not playing next week. So I would always kind of ask my friends to come. And one night there was five people there and that includes the guy making coffee. It was called the 8120 Room. It was under the coconut teaser. LA folks will remember that. And I

Craig (10:10.424)
Sure.

John (10:23.055)
a woman kind of come in the back of the room and sit there and kind of go like this. I’m like, I don’t know that person. I didn’t pay her to be here. That’s interesting. And after

After the show she came up and said, hey, you know, I’m Carla Berkowitz. At the time she worked for, it wasn’t EMI Publishing, it was one of the other publishing companies. And she said, you know, I get people record deals, heard some of your stuff and I’d to work with you. And I’d heard that many times before. But the funny story was she was actually at Motown pitching songs at Motown and I had a girlfriend that worked at Motown, a secretary who was playing my songs on her desk.

And Carla said, who’s that? And the A &R guy Motran said, it’s this guy. He plays at the piano bar. Everybody’s passed on him. know, nobody’s it. Even my lawyer behind my back was telling people everybody’s passing on me. But anyway, so Carla worked with me for a couple of years, eventually got me a record deal at EMI Records. She worked at EMI Publishing. And she’s now been my wife, will be 27 years this September.

Craig (11:05.486)
That’s crazy.

Craig (11:29.592)
Dude, I love that story. I read that. That was so awesome.

John (11:30.709)
So yeah, she’s she certainly she was one of my big breaks, but it wasn’t just her there there are five another I’m sorry the last one let me tell you was there’s a kid named Greg Laderman at the time who had a little sub label called aware records and he was just out of college and he would put out these samplers that would always have the next best best, you know the next hit thing he put out a sampler with hootie and then they become hootie and then train train matchbox 20 matchbox 20 and he also kind of found me early and put me on one of these

and he was kind of my avenue through Columbia Records. So I think, you know, those three times, meeting Carla, my mentors with Scott and Rudy, and then Greg Laderman taking a shot on me when everyone else had passed, you know, those were defining moments, but there’s dozens, you know, that this whole thing could have collapsed at any moment.

Craig (12:19.608)
Sure.

Craig (12:23.328)
Yeah, that was cool, man. Thank you for sharing. Those are good stories, We mentioned this before we were rolling. You mentioned that little things often turn into big things and you just shared some of those examples. Anything else come to mind when you said that expression?

John (12:26.206)
Yeah.

John (12:42.505)
The biggest one for me is Superman. When I wrote Superman, it was a gift. It came very quickly.

but at the time, you know, I fancied myself as a rocker, you know, listening to the who and, you know, queen and, you know, taking voice lessons from Steve Perry’s voice teacher. You know, that I kind of, my image was that, you know, I couldn’t do the David Lee Roth kicks, but I was trying and, and, and so, most of the songs I was writing was, you know, kind of rock, you know, pop rock, rock songs. And, when I wrote Superman, I’m like, yeah, it’s, I get it. I think it’s cool.

But maybe it’s something I should give to Celine or James Taylor. I had a publisher at the time, and maybe it’s something we pitch to someone else.

To this day, I’ll always be grateful to Greg Wattenberg, my producer, who kept saying, John, you know, we have to put that little song on your record. We even called it a little song because it was just this little, this little ballad. You know, we were working nights and days on these big productions and arrangements and guitar solos. And here was this little ballad. And then when we started to record it, I think we got a sense of, OK, maybe we have something special here. But we almost didn’t put it on this that record and that, you know, and that little song.

became something no one, I could never imagine. So I do think it’s a lesson learned very early about, you know, these things that seem trivial in some respects, you know, are often the most important things. And I talk, you know, sometimes my keynotes about COVID, right? I think COVID was in many ways a

John (14:25.011)
not just a catastrophic event for the country, but also a mind shift for so many people who couldn’t have dinner with their mother, who couldn’t go out of their house, who couldn’t, you know.

Craig (14:31.342)
Yeah, I agree with you.

John (14:41.173)
who couldn’t do the things we do every day, but a lot of us had our kids at our table for the first time in 10 years. My mom and dad had a second honeymoon. And so I think we found out that a lot of these things we took for granted for so long are really, at the end of the day, the important things. And the stuff we are consumed with every day, maybe they’re not…

they’re not what we thought they were. I think that sentiment of get the little things right and the big things will take care of themselves. I think we’ve all kind of reflected on that since the pandemic.

Craig (15:16.792)
Let me ask you something. You mentioned a little bit ago, you said about a lot of your success to be successful in any profession has to do with will at the same time. By you not being willful, you listen to your producer and you said, okay, I’ll put the record. I’ll put this little song on the record. How have you balanced like

John (15:37.427)
Yeah.

Craig (15:42.978)
being willful and letting things happen organically because you know, know I had to, was old most of my life. I was very willful and when I stopped it, everything got like the sunshine. So it was just a pretty amazing change. How have you balanced that?

John (16:01.237)
That’s an interesting question. think certainly I’ve had a small group of advisors around me that I trust.

And, you know, when they come to a consensus, I certainly listen to them. And I also, I think it was helpful for me that I had success at a very late age when it comes to the music business. wasn’t 18. I wasn’t 19. I wasn’t like, hey, it’s all me. I’ve already knew that it wasn’t me. And, you know, so many people had to support me to even have a chance. so I was, I was open to listening and, and, and reason and, and,

And sometimes I probably took some advice I shouldn’t have, but I was young. But the story I tell a lot too about how do you make some of these decisions is when my song Chances, I wrote Chances, of course you’re always looking for a big license for your single and it was tempted in a big blockbuster movie.

And everybody’s excited. And then I was sent a script of another movie that was much smaller. And but I loved it. And long story short, I ended up pulling from the big, you know, the big movie, put in this little movie that no one was going to see. everyone was angry with me, with me, my wife, the label, my manager. You’re crazy. And but something in my gut kind of said this song was meant for this film. And in this case, it worked out because that was the blind side and became the biggest sports movie in history.

Craig (17:33.549)
Yeah, great movie.

John (17:34.651)
But it doesn’t always work out of course. But I find the times where you don’t trust your gut and it goes off the edge, that’s what keeps you up at night. You’re like, my God, you the times that you trust your gut and it explodes in your face, you’re like, that’s the price of doing business. You know, if you’re not failing, if you’re not, if there’s not disasters, if you don’t have stories of, you know, of embarrassment, then you’re not pushing the envelope and fulfilling your potential. So I always kind of say now, you know, yeah, I don’t, you know, if it gets down to like, you know,

the nitty gritty, what does your gut say? And go with it. And whatever happens happens. So again, it took me 20 years to learn that. that’s kind of that’s my note. Oh, I wish I had a lot of things at 20 at 40 years old.

Craig (18:15.118)
Dude, that’s such an important, don’t you wish you had that when you were like 20 years old?

Craig (18:22.798)
At 40, right, right, right, man. I’m with you on that. Hey, I want to talk about some of my favorite songs of yours. Let’s start with a hundred years from the battle for everything. In an interview, you said that the song is about living in the moment. And I was curious, how do you rate yourself as far as being able to live in the moment and what sort of mindset or triggers do you use to make sure when you catch yourself, you know, in the past or in the future, what sort of triggers do you have

mechanisms to bring yourself

John (18:55.161)
I rate myself very poorly, hence the song. I certainly, like so many of us, particularly men, we have this tendency to dwell in the past and relive every decision.

Craig (19:00.422)
Ha ha

John (19:17.781)
and then Future Trip, right? Or always Future Trip, let’s move the goalposts. And for me, I think, and I’ve said this before, I don’t think I write 100 Years or The Riddle or many of these songs without kids. You know, I had my two little kids.

Craig (19:19.896)
Future shipping is a bad one.

John (19:34.727)
Superman had become this big thing. I’d living my dream wonderful wife wonderful family wonderful parents, you know, and of course, what am I doing every day? I’m lamenting my decisions I should have done this or we have to look to this and one day I’m sitting with my kids on my lap on the couch and it kind of you know Sometimes these things just hit you like, know They’ve been happening every day for years and then one day it just Mike Tyson you right? They just knock you out. I’m like, what am I doing? I’m like, you know I like look who’s sitting here, you know all

Craig (19:57.709)
Yes.

John (20:04.583)
I’m blessed to live in the best country in the world. have a song people know. Can you at least for five seconds go, okay, I recognize this. I appreciate this. And also at times where things are not great, when things are bad, when things, you know, when, things are tough, recognize that, recognize that it’s not always going to be this way, but you know, this, it’s such a cliche, but the moment is what we have, right? The moment is what we have. And, and a lot of these songs,

Craig (20:29.816)
That’s it, man.

John (20:34.517)
I think for me are little post -it notes to myself. You hey dude, you know, and so every time I sing that song, I kind of re -reflect on where I am, what I’m doing. And I think that’s why that song became so popular because so many of us struggle, you know, doing these cliches. They’re cliches for a reason, right? But yeah, I’m not, you know, I find myself…

catch myself all the time. You know, it’s, one thing to talk to talk. It’s another to walk the walk. lot of these, it’s lot of the stuff I say in my keynote. I’m like, yeah, they’re, think they’re good. Good, good, good advice. But half the time I’m not taking my own advice, but that’s, you know, we’re human and we, we, we just keep growing and doing the best we can with what we got.

Craig (21:03.105)
Yeah, of course.

Craig (21:21.282)
Yeah, doing the best you can. You know, it’s interesting. Once I became, like spiritually aware and started having a faith in the higher power, I started going back over my life and I realized that all the things that happened that were what I thought were negative, such a positive came out of it. So I came up with this thing and I say this every morning when I wake up, it says, just say I’m Craig Garber and only good things happen to me.

And I say that throughout the day to remind myself that sometimes, you know, so that my reactions to things won’t be so extreme if there is a disappointment or if things don’t go the way I, the way I thought they should go, which how the hell do I know maybe that’s happening for the best. And there have been things that have happened for the best reasons. So I say this every day and I, I even come up, the reminders come up during the day to keep, because I really, you know,

John (21:46.429)
Craig (22:16.204)
That helps me out a lot, keep me sort of like in the moment, man, because it is a tough, it’s a challenge, big challenge.

John (22:22.765)
One thing I appreciate about the kind of Buddhist philosophy is everything is in your mind. Whatever happens, it’s how you react to it and how you take it in. Because most people in the outside world don’t care about what they’re not.

Craig (22:30.253)
Man.

Craig (22:39.648)
Right, no one’s going to bed thinking about you at night.

John (22:41.673)
No one’s thinking about your problems right now. So if you’re thinking about them and everything, it’s like, you know, they don’t care you’re suffering. And again, it’s, it’s tough. It’s hard to live that way. Again, I think, especially for men. and I’ve, I’ve kind of gone to some of these Buddha classes. Again, I’m not a super religious person, but I’m, I think I’m a spiritual person. It’s, always find it interesting that a lot of religious symbolism end up in my songs. You know, I have a song called if God made you probably my best lyric, if God made you,

in love with me. I’m not a practicing Christian, I’m not an atheist, but I think we all are looking for something, higher power. so much of our happiness or whatever that is, our quest for happiness, is in our mind and how we deal with controversy and bad things happening to us and tragedy also. Again, it’s tough, but

Whenever I kind of, you know, kind of start feeling manic or whatever, I kind of just, okay, I’m breathing in, I’m breathing out, I’m sitting here. Sometimes I find myself doing that on stage too, to like, to kind of recognize how great, bad, ugly, amazing it’s happening right now, to just kind of look what’s happening right now. And we rarely do that. We very rarely do that.

Craig (24:03.982)
That breathing thing is pretty phenomenal because you could be in the midst of any kind of deep shit and if you just stop and like take 10 breaths, I don’t know what the hell it’s almost like a drug. You know, it’s no, it’s real. mean, I, it’s like, you know, it’s pretty freaking cool.

John (24:15.877)
Yeah.

John (24:21.971)
I’m with, no, I’m with you. know, again, little things become big things. It’s like, sometimes just take a breath and, you know, I’m breathing in, I’m breathing out. Okay. You know.

Craig (24:26.06)
Yeah.

Craig (24:31.904)
Yeah, totally man.

story of your life off slice. was curious the back. What’s the backstory to the lyrics in that track? Because I was wondering if these were just if these were lessons that you learned, like you can run, but you won’t get away. No one knows what’s coming up. But you’re very practical in your outlook on things, like very realistic, you know, in your lyrics, right? Like with these lessons, you learn that you just put them into the context of this woman’s life. Or was this about a particular person?

John (24:38.012)
Yeah.

John (25:06.133)
This was about my wife. She would always say, you never write songs about me. And I’m like, I wrote something about you about you. She’s like, no, you didn’t. so this one, yeah, this one was about Carla. She had a pretty tough childhood, had to kind of evacuate Long Island in the middle of the night when she was 14 because bad guys were after her dad. She ended up staying with some

Craig (25:07.789)
was.

Craig (25:12.974)
Hahaha

Craig (25:33.432)
Holy shit.

John (25:36.087)
she didn’t know for a year, put herself in college at 16, came out to LA in her early 20s with a guy she married and had some tough times with that. But through all that, she learned the fortitude to be able to take care of yourself and to work and to become one of the most powerful music publishers in the music business. so that song

as a testament to her as well as some of the lessons, not just that she learned through that, but I think that everybody can take from it. So yeah, that is her song and I think she wants more, but there’s still time. Thank you. Yeah.

Craig (26:16.12)
cool, man.

Craig (26:25.134)
Great track, Let’s talk about the Day I Die, which is one of my all time, and I mean that sincerely. Everybody listen to this. This is a phenomenal song. It’s off the Bookmarks record. The song is about a guy who’s basically narrating the last day of his life. And then after he passes, he’s still narrating it after he dies. So I have a bunch of questions. And the first one was, I thought that was such

an amazingly clever plot like storyline. How did, what was the spark for that? How did you come up with

John (27:02.559)
You know, I don’t know. mean, I think, you know, there’s so many paths to songwriting. You some is you write a lyrics, you’re sitting at the piano, find a melody and some are a concept. You know, what’s a concept? know, a hundred years was an idea, a concept. And, but I think the day I died, kind of like, you know, in a way, kind of like Superman, you take kind of this kind of symbol and twist it. It’s like, you know, imagine being someone, knowing you’re on your

your deathbed and it’s the last day of your life and it’s your last sunrise and it’s the last sundown and you see the stars come out for the last time and you’re with your loved one, you’re with your life partner and

Certainly that can be a very sad situation, but it’s also a joyful one if you’ve lived a good life and you’re with someone you love and you’re looking back, see the line, you see your kid in the chair. I think we all are, you know…

Religion is basically fear of death in many respects. It’s like, is there something more? Is there something more? So I think we all think about our mortality

Craig (28:11.534)
You know what? You’re right.

John (28:21.447)
And I think it’s I’m glad you brought that song up to me, you know, in your note you sent to me before, because I hadn’t listened to it in probably six or seven years. And I listened to it this morning and hearing it this morning.

made me a little bit emotional for a few reasons. know, one, because I really hadn’t heard, I really hadn’t remembered a lot of the lyrics. I’m in a different place than when I wrote it. And also, I believe it was the last song of Bookmarks, which was the last record record I ever released. I’ve released songs since then. So was kind of the last song of the last record, you know, for me, which again is melancholy. But yeah, it’s it’s it really hit me that that

Craig (28:40.3)
Yeah.

John (29:07.431)
that made an impact on you and your life in profound ways. And listening to it today, I had some similar sentiments that you did of am I doing what I want to be doing? Because one day I’m going to be singing that song or thinking that song and we’re all going to be in that bed with that chair and hopefully we have the love of our life with us and we’re going to see that.

Craig (29:10.454)
Ugh.

Craig (29:22.904)
Yeah.

John (29:37.331)
that last sunrise.

Craig (29:40.332)
I know, it’s such a, I mean, just a beautiful track.

Craig (29:48.142)
I’m getting emotional now a bit, so let me get my shit together. Were some of those storylines autobiographical in nature, like when you wake up in the morning and the woman says, you said good morning, are you free? Were you envisioning your wife saying that to you at the time or like, you were?

John (29:50.663)
Ha ha ha.

John (30:05.523)
Yeah, you know, maybe, you know, probably your wife, maybe it’s your child, you know, and, and to me, the line, you know, are you free means are you at peace? You know, with with your life with what you’ve done with are you ready to go? Are you free of the fear? But of course, the great thing about songs and a lot of times

Craig (30:11.352)
Yeah.

Craig (30:17.497)
Okay.

Craig (30:24.086)
Okay.

John (30:31.007)
You know, don’t necessarily give my, you know, strict interpretation of this is what I’m saying. This is what I’m doing. This is what it means because it really doesn’t matter what I, how I wrote it. It’s the beauty of music is how people take it and apply it to their lives and how they need it or how they hear it. And this actually was made clear to me again, early in my career when Superman and hundred years were popular. was corresponding with many of our troops, you know, particularly during the Iraq war

in many of them in theater, in battle, and they would send me notes. You know, I’d listen to your song to calm down after a mission, or I’d listen to your song to pump up after a mission, or I’d listen to your song to think of home. And so they would use the same song in so many different circumstances, and it meant to them something so different than other people. So I learned that…

you know, if you’re blessed enough to have a song that people know, it doesn’t really matter what I think or what I was writing about. It’s what they apply to their lives that has meaning. And that’s the beauty about music, right? Unlike, I think, any other medium.

Craig (31:38.166)
Yeah, sure is.

Yeah, I agree with you. Well, even the, like there was little, I just was so the little bits of wisdom in the song, like, you know, the guys, you know, he’s almost implying I’m not ready and then, you know, presumably God or some higher power says, you know, all you need, you need all, you know, that was like, fuck, that’s great.

John (32:02.899)
Yeah.

John (32:06.707)
Yeah.

Craig (32:07.232)
You know, like, like you don’t have a choice, man. So you know all you need, you need all you know, you’re, you’re getting on the bus, whether you’re ready or not, you know, I thought that was so cool. Absolutely. and I also thought your description of what would happen after you died was so accurate. When you talk about the day I died, the planet shrugged and moved along. A few people noticed and sang my song and

John (32:11.507)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Plan’s taking off.

Craig (32:34.702)
That’s just how it goes, you know, especially nowadays more than ever where, know, the next flashy thing will come up on this stupid phone and, know, people will be diverted. that was just, and even the, you know, my smile hit a few lie. I mean, it was just like, I, I, it’s just like the perfect song. was just so tapped into like human nature. thought it was just amazing. and thank you for writing that

and to me, this song is just such a powerful reminder of, you know, the importance of just enjoying every day or above grass, you

John (33:13.617)
No, there’s a line in The Riddle similar that basically talks about, know, in the nature of things in the universe, we are the speck of a speck of a speck. We’re like, so irrelevant in such a small little thing, but to ourselves, we’re everything.

We’re in our own life, you know, in our own mind, this we are everything. are the universe. Right. So this dichotomy of we’re everything to ourselves, but in the scheme of things, you know, we’re, you know, a moat in God’s eye. And, and, and that kind of realization of the world will move on. And one day no one will know we’re here, but

what a precious thing life is. you know, Tuesdays with Maury that Mitch Album wrote, you know, I think that’s another, a great book to kind of recognize. Yeah, a few people miss you. Maybe some people will sing my song for a few years, but at some point, you know, history will pass us by. And that’s why, as you said, that’s why make the most of what we have. you know, and…

Craig (33:59.874)
Yeah, I remember the book I that.

John (34:19.431)
And don’t, you know, it’s stupid. I, you know, it’s not stupid, but you know, the whole, don’t sweat the small stuff, you know, that’s, I think that’s a, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I should have said it sounds trivial, but it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s simple is where it’s at for songwriters too. Yeah.

Craig (34:26.264)
No, it’s not stupid. It’s simple, but it’s not simple. It’s simple, but it’s not easy. I think that’s the expression goes, you

Craig (34:39.34)
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Did that song get any traction or has it? I could see it being licensed in so many different like movie endings or show endings. Has that song got any traction or? You’re kidding me. Fuck.

John (34:53.053)
Zero.

No, I think very few people are aware of it. And that’s the frustration of being a songwriter. sometimes what you feel may be your best work is kind of, I wouldn’t say overshadowed, just for whatever reason, nobody finds it. And it just kind of has its own little place in your catalog.

But then you have moments in your life like I have where I hear from you and I hear how the song means something to you. And that makes me emotional because every song, you know.

Craig (35:36.145)
Yeah

John (35:39.837)
Unless you’re Elton or Billy Joel, you know, or the Beatles, every song’s not going to be something people know. So I also had a song called Freedom Never Cries that a lot of people don’t know, but it became a song that’s kind of a song for our troops and our military families. It’s never on the radio. I have songs now that have been had in the last few years have tens of millions of impressions that are never on the radio. So, you know, to have have songs that

may be obscure, but find a place with people as a songwriter, that is very rewarding as well.

Craig (36:14.222)
Is that an odd thing for you growing up initially in the sort of the big opportunity phase of the music business and now you’re measured by streams or likes or fans, but.

like the reality is it doesn’t necessarily drive the dollars into your pocket. that that’s why you don’t make music. Nobody got into the music business because, I want to make a lot of money. But if you hear something, oh, this has got 10 million streams and we have 100 ,000 fans or whatever the number is, in some weird way, you expect that

John (36:38.271)
Yeah.

Craig (36:57.516)
to translate into like social media currency does not translate into financial currency.

John (37:04.125)
Yeah, no, I mean, I was fortunate to catch the last wave, you know, when Superman was a hit, that was the year the record business sold the most records and then, you know, everything collapsed. Of course, I never made a penny from the record company, you know, because they never recoup. They rarely do unless you’re Beyonce. But I did write my own songs, right? So that was an income stream that continues to go. But no, I worry a lot. You know, I think it’s getting better. But, you know, seven, eight years ago, I

talk about is music just becoming a hobby? Because there really is, especially before streaming was catching up.

It’s really hard to make a living even if you kind of have hit songs with some success. And it’s dangerous, I think, for the culture if the arts become a hobby and people can’t make a living at it because we need the arts. We need artists. We need to teach kids the arts. We need songwriters and writers writing about the times so we can look back in history and say, I get a sense of the times through

Craig (37:59.088)
my god,

John (38:13.047)
just like you do through the 60s. It’s so critical, but if nobody can make a living, they have to get real job, they have to, you know, they have to, they have a family, they have to pay a mortgage. That’s a big problem. And I think we saw some of that. And I actually think we see a little bit of that still. I mean, it’s my job to be the curmudgeon. It was all good in my time, but you how many songs do we have in the last 15, 20 years that you are gonna hear?

10, 20, 30, 40 years from now. I would argue that it’s not a lot as opposed to why are we still hearing the 70s every day, everywhere. You know, there’s a reason for that. So I think it has affected us. On the other hand.

Craig (38:42.51)
Not a

John (38:55.585)
I have to admit too that the internet has leveled the playing field and you don’t need a record company to have success. Bruce Springsteen broke on his third record. That would never happen at a record company now, but artists find a career, they find an audience through the internet and they’re not beholden to a big record company. I think in many ways that’s healthy. If you hear a song in the store and you just go on your app, you

Basically, you know what that song is and you can listen to it. And also for me, there’s a whole new generation finding my music through the algorithms and through Spotify. So I do think, I think things are coming back a little bit, but.

Craig (39:28.024)
Yeah. All

John (39:40.733)
Look, live touring, think for many people now, is their income stream. And so, you know, I’m fortunate to be able to do that. But we can’t get to a place where the arts become a hobby. And I think that’s very dangerous. And we need to make sure, whether it’s through the government or for whatever the royalties are on these things, that artists are able to continue their craft. Yeah.

Craig (40:07.828)
my God, Yeah, I certainly hope so, John, tell me the top three musical experiences you’ve had.

John (40:17.397)
Certainly the most significant was the concert for New York after 9 -11 playing Superman at the concert for New York. Of course, any other night being on stage with all your living icons would have been the dream come true. know, standing there and singing Let It Be with Paul McCartney and

Craig (40:21.506)
Yeah, I figured he is.

Craig (40:35.522)
What was that like,

John (40:36.949)
Yeah, I mean, it’s there’s no words for that. It’s just surreal. And you’re like, how am I here? And and but of course, that night it was about the firefighters, you the families. And so I think it was everybody kind of understood while we were there. I tried not to fanboy too much. So certainly what Superman became for New York and the country after 9 -11, that will be, I think, the most significant thing I ever do. number two is actually

very recent. I never thought I’d have experience like the concert for New York. But after October 7th, the Hamas attacks, I wrote a song called OK, We’re Not OK, kind of about the collapse of our moral institutions. And then it became this big thing globally and particularly for Jewish people. I’m not Jewish, but the song has resonated around the world. And I had the opportunity two months ago to go to Israel between I had a week off of my tour

Craig (41:17.41)
Yep, we’re going to talk about

John (41:35.767)
I performed Superman and OK at hostage square for 10 ,000 Israelis and hostage families in the country and Jewish people around the world. It was broadcast, which really reminded me a lot of the concept from New York, know, playing a song and 10 feet in front of me, there’s there’s a woman with a sign of her son who’s being held hostage by terrorists crying with music, providing hopefully a little bit of solace for her, a little bit of hope.

So that I think is also to me, those two I think are the most significant. As far as the third one, mean, God, I’ve had so many amazing moments. I would have to say, I’ll do a selfish one now.

playing Dodger Stadium for the Kings Ducks outdoor game. Five for fighting, huge hockey fan. Dodger Stadium where I’d sit in the bleachers and catch foul ball, you know,

practice and catch home runs to sit at home plate with all that legacy and have my mom and dad in the audience to sing there was a life moment that certainly was incredible and amazing. And I’ve had some great sports moments. So probably the rest of them are all sports moments.

Craig (42:56.398)
That’s very cool man. Yeah, I read about that. That’s awesome. Let’s talk about OK We Are Not OK. So you wrote this song in support of Israel and condemning Hamas. You made a statement in an interview, John, as a rhetorical question says, how did we get to a place where our music stars can’t condemn pure atrocities? I would like to know your take on why we are not OK. Why do so many things seem broken nowadays, in particular

is my opinion, people’s ability to get along with each other and tolerate opinions that are contrary to how they feel and their hateful reactions and consequences to these differences, which, which usually take place on the most gutless medium possible of the cell phone and social media. mean, like, uh, you know, you have kids. remember when my daughter was 11, she’s 24

John (43:44.041)
Yeah, right.

Craig (43:54.638)
There was a kid asking her on social media, this was 13 years ago, so it’s kind of like early on for a hand job. And when she was 11 and I said to her, said, Sam, know, this guy would probably never even have the courage to say hello to you in person, but you know, he’s got all the balls in the world distanced through a computer or a cell phone. Anyway, but how the hell do you think we got here?

John (44:03.879)
God. Yeah.

Craig (44:24.056)
Why is everything so freaking broken?

John (44:27.719)
I mean, that could be a two hour conversation. I don’t have all the answers, know, and, you know, people are analyzing. mean, I think, I think, you know, you can certainly start talking about the internet and, you know, the, couch warriors who can, you know, can.

Craig (44:30.19)
We need alcohol for that.

John (44:47.721)
can spew whatever venom they like without consequence. And also I think for the kids, seeing what’s happening in the world around you on Instagram every day and, I’m not invited here, I’m not invited there, they said this about me, certainly is not helpful. And also we’ve become, so many people have

John (45:08.053)
decided to live in a silo of very people. You don’t have to go out. You don’t have to meet people. You don’t have to learn social graces. You don’t have to have hard conversations with somebody in front of your face. You don’t have to be accountable for some of the things you said, as you said, in front of your face. And so I think that’s part of it. I think also,

It was interesting when I was in Israel, I met with a kind of an iconic freedom fighter, Nathan Sharansky, a refuse Nick. And, and he said, you know, 20 years ago, somebody asked me, what’s the biggest threat to freedom in the Western world? And he said, American academia, which I think we’re seeing when academia kind of is dominated by this kind of woke idea, anti -American idea and, and the faculty.

is teaching this oppressor versus oppressee, America’s bad, all this stuff to kids who are very seductive at that age. And they’re taught that,

Craig (46:08.866)
Yeah, they’re very moldable.

John (46:13.749)
It’s not about right or wrong. It’s about oppressed versus oppressive. You understand why half the kids on TikTok support an evil, barbaric Hamas. They don’t know better. And what I always figured would happen is, know, 15 years ago, when when those indoctrinated kids would get out of school, they’d have to get a job. They’d have to have a paycheck. They’d have to pay taxes and their worldview would change. But it didn’t. Now, lot of those folks are running the New York Times. They’re running the news media. They’re running big business. So I think

that kind of that along with cancel culture and everybody’s afraid. But I think the music industry is a very good example of how broken we are because, you know, what do you think about the music industry? You think about human rights. You think about people who speak truth to power. You think about the 60s, the civil rights movement. You think about Live Aid. You think about Sun City. You think about the concert for New York. All these things. OK, we’re going to stand up for what is right. We don’t care what the consequences are. We’re going to write songs about

we are rock and roll, but after October 7th, when Hamas put babies in oven, murdered, raped, desecrated bodies at the Nova concert, no musicians can stand up and say, that is evil, release the hostages. I don’t say we love Israel. My song is not about Israel and Hamas.

Craig (47:42.058)
No, and it’s not about politics

John (47:43.783)
It’s civilization against those who want to tear it down. And so the fact that the music industry, the agents, the artists, with very few exceptions, have remained quiet about condemning these barbaric acts. Many of the artists Jewish that are refusing to condemn it just shows we’ve lost our soul. We’re paralyzed. We’re cowards.

And that is very dangerous. We’ve already lost the media in my mind. But when you lose the arts, the soul of the arts, because people are afraid to say killing children and committing atrocities, we can’t talk about that. Because somebody may say something. I may lose an audience member. Somebody may protest my concert.

If that’s where we are, it’s a scary time. And the fact that it shouldn’t be me that has this song that’s talking about this stuff. It should be someone with bigger platforms who’ve made their career saying that they are the ones that speak up for all these good things.

So that’s a long rant for you, I’ll stop there, but it is a shame. It’s a historic shame for our industry that I think history will judge us appropriately.

Craig (49:00.066)
No, no, no, it’s honest. It’s honest.

Craig (49:10.296)
Thank you, man. I appreciate you being so candid on that. Again, to whatever extent you’re comfortable answering this, have there been like negative consequences for you for speaking out? Yeah. I mean, besides, I mean, besides people saying, hey, you’re a fucking asshole, man. You know, I mean, that’s, that just goes with the territory.

John (49:19.482)
yeah, of course, yeah. mean, I wrote a song.

John (49:30.761)
Well, you it started, actually wrote a song about Afghanistan after the withdrawal called Blood on My Hands. And it was a song that was very critical of abandoning our allies and American citizens. Again, these things are not hard to me, you know.

Craig (49:43.352)
That was a great song, by the way. The lyrics in there were

John (49:44.905)
Thank you. mean, to me, the moral message is your blood in my hand is you don’t promise, you know, the whole nation of Afghanistan that we’ll have your back if something goes bad and then plunge them into Game of Thrones. You know, I wrote a song about Ukraine. went to Ukraine and played with the Ukrainian orchestra, you know, that song kind of. Yeah.

Craig (50:04.248)
Which by the way, when you did that, sorry I’m gonna cut you off, but your joy doing that, you could see that, it was really cool to watch.

John (50:14.089)
Well, you know, so powerful to perform in hollow ground in a blown up airport in front of the symbol of their independence with these incredible Ukrainian, you know, many of them kind of more elderly orchestra members, but they’d all lost a family member. They’d have somebody missing. They were teaching me curse words in Ukrainian to curse. It was a surreal experience. But again, all these songs to me are moral messages. And but of course, in this day and age, everything’s

Craig (50:33.179)
Hahaha!

John (50:44.023)
So of course there’s been pushback. You know, we sent Blood on My Hands and we sent OK to 400 music media outlets. Two of them covered it. When I played Hostage Square, a moment that you would think would be significant

you know, here’s this American artist, here’s this song that’s globally thing here, here’s a guy playing Hofstra Square, you know, the Rolling Stones of the world refuse to cover it because of their worldview. And so I’ve certainly got the, you know, the threats and the vitriol that anybody Jew, as I said, I’m not Jewish, but I’ve learned a little bit what it’s like to be Jewish. And you do get, you know, it’s some, it’s some,

some performances, there’s been some folks that are very unhappy. I haven’t gotten the kind of physical stuff that, you know, I haven’t had a concert canceled, like Mattis Yahoo did or Michael Rapaport did. But you know, in the music business, which

Craig (51:36.77)
Right.

John (51:45.055)
supposedly is this tolerant place that is very intolerant. A lot of the stuff is passive. It’s like, you know, I’m not gonna use that guy’s song. I hate that guy. I’m not gonna, you know, I’m not gonna hire him for this. On the other hand, I have gotten hundreds of emails and sometimes phone calls of people in the music business saying, thank you for saying this.

Craig (52:06.648)
Thank you for speaking

John (52:07.871)
Thank you for saying this, especially, you know, kind of Jewish folks in the business. So it’s like anything. If you’re not getting hatred and people aren’t angry at you, you’re probably not doing anything significant. So I think with all these songs and how the media goes back and forth, we we hate blood on my hands. we love Come on, man, save the world. Good morning, America. We’ll preview it there. It’s just I just think it’s example of good again, how we’re kind of broken as a society where morality shouldn’t be based

How is this going to affect my political party? Is it good or bad for us? Yeah, it shouldn’t matter like is this going to help us or hurt us? It should be this is right, this is wrong.

Craig (52:40.29)
What side are you on? Yeah, man.

John (52:47.943)
let the rest of it fall where it’s made. I think we’ve become so tribal, I think, you know, especially in the media that, you people always talk about a threat to democracy, you know, and we don’t get political here. It’s like Donald Trump, Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, they’re not threats to democracy. The collapse of the fourth estate is, of the media is. So I think we’re in a very dangerous place and the world’s in a very dangerous place. And what do songwriters do or what did they used to do? They’d write about it.

Craig (53:09.912)
We are.

Craig (53:16.334)
It’s shout about it, man. Yeah.

John (53:17.309)
they’d shout about it. And there are some, you know, Macklemore’s shouting about, you know, Israel’s an oppressor, you know, they’re horrible. Okay, that’s fine. You know, that’s one worldview. But for the rest of us who have a different worldview, why is everybody so afraid to express that? And I would say the consequences are so great that if you don’t, you know, the last image of my video of the okay video is Martin Luther King’s quote, you know, silence the face of evil is complicity. And sadly, in

business there’s a hell of a lot of complicity going on.

Craig (53:52.434)
I agree with you. Thank you again for all that Ego you mentioned in an interview and you talked about it earlier that You’re in a very ego driven business. How has ego helped you at times and hindered you at times throughout your

John (54:09.397)
It’s another very good question. I’m becoming very sad now, Craig. This is your last episode because you asked…

Craig (54:11.117)
Thank

Craig (54:16.366)
We can call each other and give each other therapy like twice a month.

John (54:22.695)
Yeah, bottle of whiskey. I was actually having this conversation. I had a performance just this last weekend with some, you know, some other rock star, I’m not a rock star, but some people much more famous than me. And we’re talking about ego. And I was saying to somebody, forget who, you know, the hardest thing to do, but the most important thing is

to turn it off when you walk off stage, right? Because you need ego, you need confidence, you need bravado, you need this ability to quench the fear.

of being a performer and being an artist. You have to have that or you’re not going to be very good. But it’s hard sometimes to turn that off when you walk off stage. And if you live your whole life as like, I am that guy, it usually ends badly. So I think, I think having ego, having confidence is critical as is, as having some humility to understand that.

Craig (55:14.775)
Yeah.

John (55:26.633)
First of all, you’re human and you’re never gonna do a perfect performance. You’re never gonna write the perfect song. But also, at end of the day…

I’m not a soldier, you know, saving the world and flying, driving a tank. You know, I’m not a policeman, rescue the car. It’s like, a lot of these people, you know, I’m not that guy who ran into those buildings at 9 -11. It’s like,

There are true heroes. One blessing of my career is I’ve met true heroes, real heroes. Some I can’t even say their names because, know, and many you’ll never know their names. But I think to have that gratitude of I have this platform, I’m going to use it. I’m going to have the ego to…

to say what I say and do what I do and take what comes back with it. But then the humility to realize that really what I do as an artist is we shine the light on causes and people who deserve it. We live in such a shallow celebrity culture where, you know, we’re the ones who are famous, rich and famous and athletes. But if you’re fortunate enough to have that platform, you can use it to shine the light on Augie Nieto, my ALS guy, our troops, our military families.

Craig (56:30.7)
Ugh.

John (56:44.767)
these causes with Ukraine and Israel and Afghanistan. So I think it’s a hard tightrope and you never get it right and you make mistakes. But I think like any of this, the key is to be aware of it. If we’re just aware of it, okay, okay, we have this thing, it’s important to what we do, but if we get too close to the fire, get too close to the sun, we know what’s gonna happen, right?

Craig (57:10.851)
Yeah.

John (57:10.931)
But, you know, especially, you know, we’re, and we also have to embrace look, you know, again, I talk about men a lot and, certainly women house too, but men, you know, we’re competitive. Okay. We want to win. And, you know, we, fight, we fight, you know, for the good fight and there’s nothing wrong with that. And so in fact, there’s something beautiful about that. You know, that’s why, you know, that’s why, that’s why

Craig (57:34.058)
Absolutely.

Craig (57:38.168)
That’s why our wives love us, Yeah, right.

John (57:39.753)
Well, that’s right. And that’s why we love our lives. And that’s why we love each other. and, part of that is, is stepping out of that too. And, and understanding sometimes we lose and sometimes it’s important to lose. And sometimes the best times are left when we lose and, take that. But again, you know, it’s, it’s always a work in progress. But without my ego, I can guarantee you we would not be talking because the only reason I stuck this thing out so long and it’s,

I’m not proud of saying it. It wasn’t because I love music so much. It was because I was going to go down. I was going to go down in flames. I was either going to win or go down in flames. at the end of the day, know, probably the perseverance of ego is again why I stuck it out till, you know, I hit the lottery.

Craig (58:28.194)
Yeah, man, I really appreciate all your honest answers. Thank you so much. It’s really awesome, Low points, John, what were some of the low points or dark periods you’ve had to deal with in life and how’d you get through

John (58:32.383)
Yeah, sure.

John (58:41.791)
I’ll talk about two, and one’s music related and another’s not. When I was on EMI, I made my first record. The president of the label is guy named David Segerson. And I loved it because he was a producer. He was actually a music producer. produced Tori Amis’s Little Earthquakes, incredible record. He produced The Bangles. So I’m like, here I am with a music producer running the label. He produced my record.

what could be better, right? And then EMI record closes and no other label would pick me up. And I was in my kind of mid twenties and I had to get a job. I, know, Carla had written this with me and I was at that place where many artists are where, okay, I can’t keep doing this because I have to, I’m going get married. I’m going to got to pay the rent. And I was working at the family business and I cut off all my hair. I started putting a suit on, going to work and Carla,

this was this is well here’s what took balls here’s what took balls i come home two days later and my and she wasn’t my wife at the time but my girlfriend she had cut her hair off too to basically in support of me and i cry when i even think about that and she is she’s a supermodel she’s like you know she’s like a gorge and and and so and so i was basically like okay i got it

Craig (59:40.066)
Wow, that took balls, man. That was

Craig (59:51.95)
in support of you. That’s freaking cool,

John (01:00:05.161)
Gotta provide, you know? But I didn’t know that, unbeknownst to me, she was still setting up my demos to companies, and that’s how she found to wear records, and then kind of the stars aligned. But that kind of moment of, I gave it the shot, and I was just talking about ego, without my wife, that wouldn’t have mattered. But that moment was very frustrating, but Superman came out of that.

Superman came out of that experience. I probably wouldn’t have written Superman if I hadn’t had that collapse. So many artists have that story, other record come close.

Craig (01:00:38.05)
Wow.

John (01:00:49.557)
Very challenging time for me was recently during the pandemic. My dad was 85 was well, he’s 83. So he had a quarantine and our family business is downtown LA and hotbed for COVID 300 employees. Many of them been with us 20, 30 years sales collapsing, but because we make carts, we’re an essential business. So we don’t shut down.

A lot of people getting COVID, so trying to keep people healthy, trying to sustain my father’s business legacy that’s been in the family a hundred years. Trying to keep myself upright, going down there at two in the morning and taking temperatures of guys and all this stuff that went into COVID was probably the most challenging thing that ever.

Craig (01:01:35.342)
Holy shit.

John (01:01:42.581)
happened and I talk about this at my keynote too about, you know, I had to make decisions that I’d never thought. I went to therapy, I got some medicine because it was a lot of stress and I talk about taking care of yourself first. know, my keynote, said, take care of yourself first because then you can take care of everyone else. I’d always say that, but I never lived it. I never lived it. And then I’m driving on the 405 at like, you know, five in the morning one day, like halfway through COVID and there’s no one

Craig (01:02:05.176)
Hahaha

John (01:02:12.535)
and it’s like the Twilight Zone and I’m exhausted. I’d lost 15 pounds. I’m like, you know, and I’m like, you know what? You talk about this thing about taking care of yourself first. Maybe you should think about that. And so I, you know, I did, got, you know, I got some of the psych meds and I started sleeping better and, it kind of, you know, so I made, but that was really, that was really hard for so many, for all of us. But, but we, you know, we made it through and we got everybody through

Craig (01:02:32.078)
Good.

John (01:02:42.471)
We had two guys that run ventilators for 20 days and all that stuff. But we got everybody through, we got the business through, and my dad’s back working 24 -7, 85 years old. But that for me was a brutal time.

Craig (01:02:55.678)
Congratulations.

Craig (01:03:00.856)
Well, you had a lot of pressure on you that came out of nowhere. And there’s no frame of reference to like manual to go back. It’s like raising kids. Like what do you look at to figure out how to get through that shit?

John (01:03:09.439)
Yeah.

Yeah, every day was like a brand new kind of, know, nobody’s been here before. What do we do? And, but, know, again, I was, I was happy that I was in a place in my life where I could do that for my dad because I, my parents were the ones that really supported me. If I didn’t have precision wire to work at while I was pursuing my career, I would just never, I would never be able to do it. You know? So, so in a way it was, I felt, you know, I felt

grateful to be able to do a little pay it back to my parents. you know, yeah. Yeah.

Craig (01:03:43.928)
Payback, yeah, sure, man. Good, that’s awesome. Glad you guys all got through that. Actually, touch on this a little bit. Which one of your personality or which of your personality traits do you think have most contributed to your success?

John (01:03:57.365)
Well, we talked about ego and perseverance. I think also having my parents, it’s not a personality trait, but having a great support from my parents and Carla and other folks, I think was important. I’m a hard worker.

I think work ethic is so critical to this. Very few of us are prodigy writers. So think so much of it is just doing the work. I’d say this again in my keynote, I’ll write a hundred songs to get ten for record. I wrote thousands of songs before Superman. I once calculated I worked 40 ,000 hours before I made a penny in the music business. So much, I think, of success is…

Craig (01:04:27.754)
dude.

John (01:04:53.469)
is work ethic. And another thing I talk about too is relationships. I think whatever you do, think relationships, again, are more critical than talent and building relationships. And whenever I talk to young bands who have success, initial success, I say,

What’ll go a long way for you is if you’re the same person when you have the number one song in the country as you were when you were nobody walking into these program directors begging for a spin. So if you can kind of keep some humility when you have success, that I think is a big part of it. So I think.

my ability to kind of stay kind of grounded. I’ve never been part of the music scene. I don’t go to the parties. I don’t get invited to the parties. I have precision wire. have like, have other things. I don’t get, yeah, I’m not that guy, you know, and so I think, I think kind of just kind

Craig (01:05:42.082)
I don’t get invited to parties.

Craig (01:05:47.836)
I

John (01:05:50.549)
understanding how lucky I am to do music, but not have it consume me as this is only who I am, you know, because it’s going to go bad. You know, I have a lot of friends who, uh, who had, you know, hits in the two thousands who are really struggling now because, know, it’s, it’s, it’s tough to have that and then have it go away and, and you write a great song and you’re like, wow, it would have been a hit in 2004. he is like, you know, that, that, that’s tough. I mean, I struggle with

Craig (01:06:07.776)
God, yeah.

John (01:06:20.543)
I took a year off and I would rest for a year. so maybe, you know, kind of having that my parents kind of instituted this kind of love of family and support staff, which gave me a little, I think, perspective on on relationships and work ethic and all that stuff. But I don’t know if that’s a good answer, but that’s that’s. Yeah.

Craig (01:06:21.368)
Sure.

Craig (01:06:41.176)
No, it’s honest, very good answer. Couple of things, comments on that. You know, I’m such a stickler for work ethic. almost judge, to me, can, if someone doesn’t have a good work ethic, I’m like, I just almost don’t even want any part of them because it’s such a strong symbolism

how you run the rest of your life. Do you take shortcuts? you giving, you know what I’m saying? I think it’s such an important defining category of a human being and lack of it is as well. And the other thing I was thinking of you, which probably helps you, you probably have left and right brain strength because of your parents, your dad’s an astrophysicist, your mom’s a musician. You know what I mean? And

That’s a gift. Cause I’ve talked to, you know, most musicians I’ve spoken to, you know, listen, let’s face it. And it’s no secret. And this is not a smear on musicians. Like they’re allergic to business. They’re allergic to marketing and to their detriment. Unfortunately, you know, like I’ve had guys on the show, you know, like early on I said, Hey, you know, John, what could we promote today? I want to support my guests. Right. And, well, I got nothing. like, don’t you have a new record? And they’re like,

John (01:07:51.775)
Yeah.

Craig (01:07:57.302)
Yeah, but I’m like, well, the shit’s not going to promote itself. Like you’re here. Let me at least, you know, it’s like they’re really allergic to it. It’s unfortunate, you know, it’s,

John (01:08:07.433)
Well, think, you know, I think that I should have mentioned that earlier, but I think you’re right. think my experience working at Precision Wire paid a lot of dividends in the music business. Cause again, I think my business acumen and experience again, it’s way more important than any talent I have without that. we wouldn’t be talking again, developing relationships, how to handle failure.

the fact that, you know, fight for fighting is not a band, it’s a guy. so, you know, so you’re running that business. Who do you, who do you hire for your band and who are those, are those good people? Do they represent you well? You know, a lot of it, you know, who do you hire as a manager? Who do you work with? Who do you not work with? All those decisions that go to running a business, trying to understanding that

Craig (01:08:51.543)
Right.

John (01:09:04.713)
very early that it’s very unlikely you will sustain the success. know, saving your money, investing properly, you know, we have so many friends who’ve had, you know, you know, have hit the stratosphere success wise and have blown all their money, you know, it’s like, yeah, you know, so I think.

Craig (01:09:25.602)
Yeah, pissed away their money on velvet couches or something like that.

John (01:09:30.917)
So especially today when you can do it yourself, like Madonna was an amazing businessman, businesswoman, business person. You know, look at some of these people, Gene Simmons, right? Incredible businessman, right? So you can kind of go through, you know, some of these folks and you see, yeah, they have the thing, they do their thing, but in many respects, why are they icons? Either they’re great business people or they understand they need to get great people around them to do it. So yeah.

Craig (01:09:42.027)
my god,

Craig (01:09:59.586)
Yes.

John (01:10:00.813)
So I think the business stuff for me has been really critical.

Craig (01:10:05.484)
Yeah, I would agree with that man. Do you have a favorite song you wrote?

John (01:10:12.405)
Oh, it’s the day I died today. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think they’re all your kids, right? Everybody says your songs are your kids. think. Yeah, it’s like it’s like who’s your favorite kid? I do think, you know, as I is now that I’m 60, I think 100 years for me is a song that

Craig (01:10:17.454)
It’s my favorite song, you’re on that’s for sure.

Craig (01:10:28.878)
That’s what Joe

John (01:10:43.061)
that never gets old to me, because we’re all in there. It lives with me. It still seems as fresh as when I wrote it. Of course, that it’s had its impact in the culture helps. as far as the popular songs, if I could only take one, it’d probably be 100 years.

Craig (01:11:01.09)
Yeah, that’s cool, man. Tell me your top three Desert Island discs, just for now, because that changes all the

John (01:11:08.802)
Abbey Road, Tommy.

Craig (01:11:15.365)
my God, what a great record. Not enough people mention that. That’s such a great record.

John (01:11:17.949)
Yeah. And Stevie Wonder’s song’s in the Key of Life.

Craig (01:11:23.416)
Yeah, that’s a great, great record. John, tell me about a change you made or a specific experience you had that changed either your outlook on life or your outlook on

John (01:11:39.017)
Hmm. Well, I think the most defining moment in education for me, and we’ve talked about it, was the concert for New York because I learned that night how music can matter in ways

I never recognized. it wasn’t my performance. It was actually The Who when they played Bob O ‘Reilly and the roof blew off Madden Square Garden. And I looked at and you saw 20 ,000 people, many of them who’ve been down at ground zero digging through the rubble, you know, finding body parts and like they hadn’t had a chance to like release and they all came Madden Square Garden and The Who blows and everybody’s singing, screaming, crying. People are hugging families. And I’m like, and I’m just sitting this little kid

Craig (01:12:05.238)
Dude what a song that was.

John (01:12:27.051)
the site station. like, okay, that’s why we do this. This is why music matters. And that started my relationships with the troops and my performing for USO and for doing these causes because I, know, autism, whatever it is.

because I learned that night, okay, you have this song that’s impacting in ways you never could imagine. So how do you, you could just cash it in fame and fortune and do all that, or you can use that and learn and continue to whether they’re hit songs or not, to try to write songs that have significance, not just success. And sometimes you have both, but I think that…

that change in my brain about why are we doing this. And it’s not necessarily about having a number one song, but having a song that impact, you’re a perfect example of the day I died, song very few people know, but having songs that impact people, maybe it’s one person, maybe it’s one billion people. But I think that outlook as a songwriter is a healthy one. And I think the concert for New York kind of instilled that in me.

Craig (01:13:41.262)
That Baba O ‘Reilly, I I remember the first time that I heard that opening. It’s just like a, your ear, it’s like a magnet for your ears, man. It’s like, you cannot not listen to that thing, man. You know, such a great track. Hey, what are the, you mentioned that you’re going to be 60. I’m 60. What’s the most important lessons you’ve learned from getting older?

John (01:13:57.087)
So good.

John (01:14:07.301)
you know, again, we’ve talked about it, you know, have, have some gratitude for what you do have. Be grateful for what you do have. be grateful to live.

in a free country, in a country that has freedoms and meritocracy. you go to, we do stuff for Afghanistan, you go to Ukraine and you go to Cuba, I played at Gitmo and a lot of the stuff we take for granted. So I think to be grateful for that. And I think…

Craig (01:14:22.478)
god, yeah.

John (01:14:46.956)
I’m very grateful that right now at Precision Wire I have my dad and my son, we’re all working together. We have a window for that. So I think a lot of it is to take a step back. I think part of it is I’m not writing 200 or 300 songs a year. I’m kind of writing when I feel like it and I’m working with people on projects that inspire me. I think we get to a point in our life and I think you’re kind

Craig (01:14:53.048)
That’s cool.

John (01:15:14.025)
you’re kind of having that epiphany in the last month of at some point we get to a point where we’ve been grinding, we’ve been doing a lot, maybe we’ve made some security and we’ve working hard, at some point, let’s, you know, assuming that I have the means, let me do things that move me with people I like and with people that inspire me and let me do things that have joy. Maybe they go, maybe they don’t, but whatever I’m doing, be surrounded with people that are inspiring me and maybe say no

in a while. The word no can be hard to…

Craig (01:15:45.97)
dude, that’s a powerful word,

John (01:15:47.477)
Yeah, maybe, you know, it took me 20 years to learn to say no. But, you know, that’s a very important word. So I think when we get to this age in our life, you know, people always say, you know, the best is yet to come. I think I think it is because a lot of it was on our own terms. And we can make decisions that we may or may not make five, 10 years ago. And and I’m so excited for you, Craig, you know, to to, you know, I know your smile. You seem relaxed.

Craig (01:16:11.598)
Thank you, Thanks, Sean.

John (01:16:17.611)
you’re like, you know, it’s like it’s and for many of us, we never make that decision. We never make that decision. I don’t care what age we are. So it’s a big deal. It’s a really big deal. And I think we can all be inspired as much as you got to send me a T -shirt because I want to wear my T -shirt, you know, I want to wear my T -shirt to support, know, but yeah, sometimes change can be the hardest thing to do. The hardest decisions to make, you know, change is always hard. But sometimes when you make it, you’re like,

Craig (01:16:34.518)
You got

John (01:16:48.007)
What took me so long?

Craig (01:16:49.864)
dude, was just like a box. was like a literally a million pound weight off my, my shoulders. And I’m just so happy, you know, and I, greatest blessing in my life has been my wife and that relationship. And I kind of like you or you implied, you know, I married way above my pay grade and yeah. And you know, to not honor that the way I need to.

John (01:17:07.569)
Yeah, we have that in common.

Craig (01:17:18.452)
Of course, my wife was like, holy shit, what if I hate you and you’re around all the time? I said, I know, I say, we’ll be fine. Don’t worry, which everything’s cool. But yeah, so I just, I’ve made so many bad decisions. said, you I gotta start making some good ones. Even a broken clock’s right twice a day, John, right? And thank you for your support and kindness. Hey, what do you like most about yourself?

John (01:17:22.133)
Be careful what you wish for.

John (01:17:47.861)
my God, is… I think if you need somebody in a tough time, I think I’m there. And I’m not always…

Craig (01:17:52.635)
That’s the question that everybody stops dead.

John (01:18:12.351)
I’m not always as engaged as I probably should be with things, but I think I’m a loyal person. I think I’m a fair person. Kind of traits my father has. I appreciate that I work hard. I appreciate that I have decided to say some things.

that very few people want to say. that whatever you want to call that, well, you know, they say, say courage is contagious and also cowardice is contagious. you know, so I take a little bit of satisfaction that not only am I saying things people won’t say, but it seems to be making a dent in the culture and giving people some

Craig (01:18:43.606)
It’s called courage, man. I, yeah.

Craig (01:18:51.512)
of.

John (01:19:03.413)
some solace and also some spine to take it upon themselves to, not that I’m always right, but just to speak their mind because for some reason in this culture, people are afraid to do that and that’s not a healthy place.

Craig (01:19:21.686)
No, it’s not. What’s really weird about it is in past cultural revolutions, it was about, as you implied earlier, having a voice, speaking more. And it’s interesting to see this, and maybe I’m just a silly old man at this point, I don’t know, but it seems like, hey, don’t have a voice is the message of this cultural revolution. I’m like, I don’t really get that one, but you know, it’s just weird, different.

John (01:19:30.804)
Yeah.

John (01:19:47.593)
You know, as a songwriter, you’re always listening and Silly Old Man is a good title, good song title. So for all the songwriters on here, always be listening. You might be hearing Silly Old Man from Craig and, no, from Craig and John.

Craig (01:19:52.258)
There you go.

There you go. Well, send it to me after you write it. Toughest decision you had to make or most difficult decision you ever, difficult thing you’ve had to

John (01:20:14.559)
That’s interesting, you I

John (01:20:19.529)
I haven’t had like a complete crossroad. mean, certainly when EMI closed and I’m like, okay, I’m gonna go get a real job and do that was difficult, but it was almost by necessity, right? And when COVID hit, it wasn’t really a decision. I was gonna do that. I was gonna do that.

John (01:20:45.523)
maybe my most difficult decisions ahead of me. And when I find it, I’ll let you know. I’ll call. No, I’ll call you for advice.

Craig (01:20:49.9)
Let me know, man. I’d love to know.

I don’t know about that. can really, people always often people ask me for advice because they think if you’re on a platform, you’re really smart. They don’t realize it’s just, don’t know what the fuck is going on anymore than anybody else. but that’s an interesting one. People always say, how did you stay married so long? like, I only have one experience. I don’t really, I can’t really tell. I don’t have all these experiences. So it’s like, I don’t know.

John (01:21:19.466)
Yeah.

Craig (01:21:23.374)
always weird on advice. Last question John and I want to thank you so much and it’s such a joy to have met you and you know thank you for everything you didn’t know that you did for me that you did for me. What’s been the biggest change in your personality over the last 10 years and has that change been intentional or just a you know function

John (01:21:34.897)
John (01:21:46.495)
probably both. Hopefully we get a little wiser and we maybe we get a little more contemplative. You know, I would say I’m a little more mellow. But if you see me on TV these days, I’m always ranting about something. But but yeah. Yeah.

Craig (01:22:02.862)
Yeah, but that’s different. That’s like you’re in that spot. That’s your job at that time. Nobody wants to see a mellow performer, like laid back. You got to be pumping the energy.

John (01:22:09.309)
Yeah. Yeah.

John (01:22:17.693)
Yeah, yeah. And also the subject matter I’m talking about is not something that is just like, you know, have a cup of coffee and like, you know, I think, you know, maybe the best way to state is I think I breathe a little deeper than I did before. I’m still struggling with that. I still have, you know, certainly after October 7th and some of the stuff I’ve done, it creates some mania and some stress.

Craig (01:22:31.138)
Good for you,

Craig (01:22:43.16)
Yeah, I’m sure.

John (01:22:43.209)
But I think I breathe a little deeper. I look at the sky a little longer. I appreciate my kids now that we’re empty nesters like you. I appreciate things. I appreciate my health more.

Craig (01:22:52.397)
for

John (01:23:04.659)
You know, we all have, we all have aches and pains. We all have these things that never go away. So every day we wake up and I’m like, that doesn’t hurt quite as bad as it did yesterday. You know, I appreciate, you know, my health. I appreciate my parents. You know, I think, I just think I’m a more grateful person, but that also inspires me to, to, to get off my ass and do stuff that matters too. So it’s kind of this weird dichotomy of.

Craig (01:23:08.471)
Yeah.

John (01:23:28.017)
Okay, breathe, enjoy, like, you know, finally you’re here, you don’t have all those stresses. But also it’s like, I do have this platform and I do have these things and, and while we’re here, we need to make a dent in this world. So it’s, it’s kind of going back and forth, but,

But yeah, it’ll be in, you know, I’ll be 60 next year and, and, um, I’m looking forward to, you know, the next 20, 30 years. And, and I’m, thinking it’s going to be the best part of my life. I’m planning on that. And, uh, it’s an honor to be with you on, your last show. Congratulations on such an incredible run. All my, all my buddies, Pete Thorne, Greg Saran, Randy cook, you know, everybody loves you and your podcasts. And I know you’re going to keep, you know, keeping music and keep doing stuff.

Craig (01:23:58.018)
Thank you, man. Thank you for everything.

Craig (01:24:09.816)
Thank you. Yeah.

John (01:24:12.613)
I look forward to the next thing you do, because at some point your wife will kick you out for a day. But yeah, it’s an honor and congratulations. And thank you so much for having me on this very significant moment for you.

Craig (01:24:17.486)
I’ll call you for advice. don’t know what to do when that happens.

Craig (01:24:28.696)
Thank you so much and I appreciate it. Hey, let me tell people where to find you and what you got going on. John’s got a bunch of tours coming up, rock tours as well as string quartets. And I would love you to go check him out at one of his concerts and his everything will be listed on fiverrfighting .com on his website. Also, please follow him and like him and whatever the proper adverbs are. Five for Fighting on Facebook.

John Ondrasik on Twitter and 5forfightingmusic on Instagram. John, any final words of wisdom?

John (01:25:05.353)
Just sending love to all my fellow musicians and fellow folks out there and keep up the good fight and keep on singing. That’s what we’re here for.

Craig (01:25:15.766)
Right on man, I appreciate everything and everybody thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this interview, share it on your socials with your friends. Thanks so much to John Ondrasik, we appreciate him coming on the show and most important, remember that happiness is a choice. I think I’ve said that at the end of every single show I’ve had here. So be nice, go play your guitar or whatever it is you’re doing and have fun and peace and love everybody. I’m out. John, thanks so much.